Has Ferrari ever built a game-changing car?

"marshknute" (marshknute) 04/26/2018 at 21:08 • Filed to: None

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I’m not talking about beautiful or iconic cars. I’m talking about cars that genuinely moved the goalposts and put the automotive industry on notice.

When I say “game-changing,” I mean cars like the Ford Model T, Mini Cooper, Lamborghini Miura, and Tesla Model S. Each one took the world by surprise and changed the automotive landscape forever.

But I can’t think of a single Ferrari that actually made a historical difference.

For example, the F40 was a thrilling analog icon, but the high-tech Porsche 959 set the standard for all computer-optimized modern supercars. The F40 was a greatest-hits album, Ferrari’s Dark Side of the Moon if you will, but it didn’t change the game, nor did it influence the design of its successors.

So you tell me, can you think of a single Ferrari that, if erased from history, would change today’s automotive landscape?

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:19

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They made the fastest hot hatch back in 2011.

TheHondaBro > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:22

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None that I know of, but they were responsible for game-changers like the GT40, NSX, and Miura.

marshknute > TheHondaBro 04/26/2018 at 21:23

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That’s a good way to put it. They drove the competition to innovate without ever innovating themselves.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:27

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The 250 GTO. That thing won races for THREE YEARS and made everyone go “oh shit” and play catch up. Before the GTO you had the E-Type and after the GTO you got the GT40. It’s the car that made everyone up their game.

wafflesnfalafel > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:28

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not a fan boi but I would put the 458 and Testarossa in the “iconic” category, maybe the 328, 250 and certainly the 365.

Nothing > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:30

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Yes. The 308. That design was aped by so many other vehicles. It is probably, for people of a certain age, the vehicle that they envision when people say Ferrari.

MultiplaOrgasms > TheHondaBro 04/26/2018 at 21:33

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I’d argue that none of these were game changers either. The GT40 was hardly revolutionary, but it proved a point, and so did the NSX. I’d even go as far as calling the NSX nothing more than a 1990s 2000GT.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:40

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Ironically, IMO the gaudy AF 1980s saw some of the most iconic and game-changing Ferraris. The TR brought us massive grilles and the 288/F40 brought turbos and aero to supercars.

Also, the performance and sound of Ferrari’s flat plane crank V8 remains uncontested to this day.

marshknute > MultiplaOrgasms 04/26/2018 at 21:44

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Many people credit the NSX as being the first everyday supercar, but many people also forget about the BMW M1 that preceded it. But considering the M1's limited production, I’ll give the NSX its credit.

daender > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:46

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The 250 GTO, the sports car that dominated the circuits and forced Shelby to design and build the Daytona to finally challenge and beat it. In a way, it also changed the game for Ferrari collect-ability, a car once worth maybe ten thousand dollars (which was a lot back in the 60/70s) is now worth tens of millions...even if it’s been rebuilt after numerous crashes that it’s a Ship of Thesus on wheels.

marshknute > Nothing 04/26/2018 at 21:47

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The 308 is definitely the first Ferrari I think of, but I wouldn’t call it a game changer. It was just a really sexy supercar using the existing technology of its time period.

Nothing > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:50

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You asked about historical significance, not about technological advancements.

marshknute > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 04/26/2018 at 21:50

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If we’re talking about practical performance cars, surely the Porsche Cayenne is the poster child. Everyone laughed at them. Everyone said it would spoil the Porsche name. And yet, the gamble paid off, and the rest of the automotive industry has been scrambling to play catch-up ever since.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:53

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Oh no. I’m talking hot hatchbacks. That’s a hot hatch.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 21:55

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Actually, the F40 did change the game. It was the first carbon fiber tubbed production car, IIRC.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 22:02

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I’ll give the Ferrari the Ferrari a bump. Seemed like the threat of t caused the 918 and P1

coqui70 > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 22:03

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Maybe the F1 racing cars during Michael Schumacher’s heyday.

Matt Nichelson > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 22:44

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I would say the F40 is absolutely a game changer in that, even though it wasn’t a technological marvel, it was the first production car to have a top speed over 200 mph (201 counts) and helped pave the way to the realm of hypercars by showing the 200 mph barrier could be broken and given in a vehicle that could be driven by someone other than a race car driver.

Tapas > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 04/26/2018 at 22:47

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This ^

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 23:20

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The355 F1 absolutely was a game changer. It was the first production car to have paddle shifters. I remember as a kid how cool that transmission was. Split second, perfect shifts, every time. That box might be outdated now, but every serious sports car since then has gone to paddles.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > marshknute 04/26/2018 at 23:55

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120deg v-6

TheHondaBro > MultiplaOrgasms 04/27/2018 at 00:19

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The NSX forced supercar manufacturers to compete in metrics other than speed and performance.

AuthiCooper1300 > marshknute 04/27/2018 at 04:43

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By nature Ferrari was (and is) a conservative company (although probably not as conservative as BMW, for example, although those pesky Bavarians would love everyone to think otherwise).

Probably the single most revolutionary act in the history of Ferrari was starting to build minuscule V12s (1.5, 2.0 litres), but it would be difficult to say whether those were road cars, racing cars or both. (Unfortunately I don’t think it is fair to mix competition cars and road cars in such a question. Usually you start winning by being more advanced than the opposition anyway.)

In F1, Forghieri’s flat-12s of the 70s were quite something. Can’t say at first, but in its latest years it was the second most powerful engine in F1 (Alfa Romeo’s 12 was!) and the damn thing would not break.

AuthiCooper1300 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 04/27/2018 at 04:50

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Oh no. In fact the F40 was resolutely old-style: just a steel tube chassis albeit reinforced with glued-on Kevlar panels.

AuthiCooper1300 > marshknute 04/27/2018 at 04:59

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I don’t think the M1 was ever intended to be a “everyday usable supercar” per se. The high-performance landscape had evolved and with it, the idea on what a supercar should be. But then it was a BMW so probably they took extra care in delivering a product that would not alienate BMW’s customers (including those who were never going to buy it).

The concept of “usable supercar” is interesting because arguably both the NSX and the 959 could be considered to be the first truly usable supercars ever, albeit with completely different methods and goals.

AuthiCooper1300 > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 04/27/2018 at 05:07

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But it was a racing car (even if it can, was and is driven on the street) built for the sole purpose of winning races. All “winning” cars are game changers to one extent or another. Would the history of the automobile be different without the GTO? Probably, but not terribly different.

Then there is the considerable amount of rule-bending present in its homologation (Gran Turismo Omologato... oh the irony!), but that seems always to be par for the course with Ferrari anyway.

AuthiCooper1300 > Matt Nichelson 04/27/2018 at 05:21

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I don’t think an everyday driver would feel comfortable in an F40 at all . That is not its point, by an extremely wide margin.

That was the point of the 959.

AuthiCooper1300 > daender 04/27/2018 at 05:25

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Investor/collector hype should not be part of this debate, I think.

As glamorous as the Ferrari name/aura is, and as fabulous as the GTO was, those prices are not justified – at all.

Think about 356 Speedsters and their ludicrous prices. Are they desirable? Yes. Are they special? Yes. Would I love one? You bet. Are they worth so much?? No way.

AuthiCooper1300 > marshknute 04/27/2018 at 06:04

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Probably the most honest answer is that no Ferrari car, by itself, has changed the history of the automobile; but without the Ferrari company and all it entails, the whole car thing (as a cultural phenomenon) would have been very different.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > AuthiCooper1300 04/27/2018 at 07:01

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Oh yes. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.topspeed.com/cars/ferrari/1987-1992-ferrari-f40-ar160081.amp.html

AuthiCooper1300 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 04/27/2018 at 08:21

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Oh dear. I did not like that webpage at all. Mentioning a 4 08 Mondial (?!) should have rung a few alarm bells...

I’ll leave you with a few quotes:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/ferrari/f40-1987-1992

Quote:

Using materials and techniques adopted from Ferrari’s Formula One cars, the F40 is built by cladding a particularly strong and rigid tubular steel platform chassis and cabin section – a kind of cage that enshrouds the occupants and provides the mounts for the suspension and the engine.

The panels, moulded from light but immensely tough Kevlar, are bonded to the frame with advanced adhesives. The materials and methodology meet Ferrari’s objective of cutting weight by 20 per cent while increasing torsional rigidity threefold over an equivalent all-steel construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F40#Chassis

Quote:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Frame: tubular steel and composites

Another quote:

Gordon Murray analysed the car in Motor Trend 07/1990: “It’s the lack of weight that makes the Ferrari so exciting. There’s nothing else magic about the car at all... They’re asking two- and three-inch-diameter steel tubes at chassis base datum level to do all the work, and it shows - you can feel the chassis flexing on the circuit and it wobbles all over the place on the road. It really does shake about. And, of course, once you excite the chassis the door panels start rattling and squeaking. Whereas the other cars feel taut and solid, this one’s like a big go-kart with a plastic body on it.” He severely criticized the old racing technology: “It’s not even ‘60s technology, from a frame point of view, it’s ‘50s twin-tube technology, not even a spaceframe. It’s only got local frames to hold the bulkhead to the dash, attach the front suspension, rear suspension and rollbar. And then you have the marketing Kevlar glues in with a quarter inch of rubber.” [36]

Also, please have a look at the diagram here. Although the poster gets wrong the carbon fibre vs. Kevlar bit he clearly says “no tub”.

http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/ferrari-discussion/14575-f40-crash.html#post146776

Do you think a proper tub of bonded carbon-fibre panels (incidentally, Kevlar is not carbon-fibre) would have been so flexible as Mr Murray says? Some bodywork panels of the F40 were made of carbon-fibre composites though. Maybe that’s how those guys from topspeed.com got it so incredibly wrong. Maybe they confused it with the F 5 0, which does have a proper full-composite monocoque (made of kevlar + nomex + carbon fibre honeycomb panels).

Amoore100 > marshknute 04/28/2018 at 03:26

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The M1 was not an everyday supercar.

The Acura was simply miles ahead ergonomically, the mechanicals were largely tried and true, and it’s a ‘90s Honda—in your head you know nothing’s gonna go wrong whereas an ‘80s Bimmer will just constantly remind you that there’s a tiny electrical fault that you will never find.

Amoore100 > Nothing 04/28/2018 at 03:29

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Mmmm, yes—quite a revolutionary machine, the 308.